But then again, there are people such as J. Caesar who can go way over the top with their rhetoric. Most progressives would not agree with the statement "What we hate is what America has become." Most progressives would never presume to tell a Republican that "only someone who is blinded by ideology could possibly support President Bush and still claim to be a Republican." Most of us don't have the gall to tell someone else what they are allowed to believe and call themselves.
But, this is instructive, because you can see that just because one person says what J. Caesar says, it doesn't mean everyone to the left of you agrees with him. He may not be able to distinguish between the issues and the people, but most of us can. So, again, don't paint us with a cartoon broadbrush.Comment Posted By Nash On 27.05.2005 @ 12:44
yes, by hatred of the United States of America, to attack our war effort and undermine the US armed forces in the process.
Says you. It's simply not true that there are very many Americans who, disagreeing with you about the need for the Iraq invasion and about how the way the war, once begun, has been handled, feel anything but love and pride for our country. The fact is, *you* equate disagreement with *your* opinion as hatred for American, but that's illogical. You don't want to understand this, I think, but it is a simple fact that someone can disagree with you on this and still love this country at least as much as you do.
And the idea of this not supporting the US military is a dodge. As I said in your earlier thread, I do not see any less support of our troops by progressives than by conservatives. Certainly in my world, it's not true and I simply don't see how my thoughts are unusual amongst progressives. You want us to be traitors because we dont' agree with you, but your wanting it to be so doesn't make it so. Again, as I said in your earlier thread, there are millions of progressives who support the "war effort", meaning the troops and the need to do things well and get things right because we are there and no amount of magic wand waving is going to change that. Not having wanted to get into this war does not equal not supporting the war effort. I understand that you need to conflate the two, but you simply can't get *me* and millions of others to feel anything but an overall pride for this country and our troops. Contrary to what you argue, there are very few Americans who want this country to fail in this effort, now that we are in it. But you need to say that we hate America. So there is a big disconnect between reality and what you want to see, because disagreement with you equals treason, lack of troop support and hate for America.
BTW, I see you are a Drake grad. I think that's cool--I have an uncle who taught journalism there for years.Comment Posted By Nash On 27.05.2005 @ 10:08
Dean, I grant that you were able to be fairly straightforward, but you have failed to accurately describe the opinion that you are also caricaturing. Communication is not aided if you can't accurately describe an opinion with which you disagree without making it an untrue cartoon.
The “left,” generically speaking, either opposed the war effort from the beginning, or turned against it the moment it looked like bad things were happening (due to their general ignorance of military matters).
I will pass over the "generically speaking," since your very inclusion of it shows that you are aware you are unfairly broadbrushing millions of people. I do this all the time myself, but it isn't attractive from either of us.
"either opposed the war effort"--stop right there. No, there are a insignificant, nearly nil number of people who don't support the "war effort". As so many do, you are conflating opposing the legitimacy and/or need for the Iraq war (which is the opinion of millions of Americans) with lack of support for the "war effort". The overwhelming majority of people who didn't support invasion of Iraq in 2003 meantime strongly support the war effort, both in emotional as well as material ways. I seriously doubt that conservative supporters of the Iraq invasion are any larger material or vocal supporters of the US military than progressives or liberals are. Anecdotally, I will say that there isn't a single conservative in my own personal sphere who has sent a greater number of gifts, letters, magazines, food, and other forms of encouragement to our troops than I and a number of my progressive friends have. I believe you need to personalize it by saying that if anyone disagrees with this administration's choice to go to war and handling of the war once there, then they are not supporting the war effort. Well, you are simply wrong from every direction if that's how you reason it. Of course, it's also necessary for you to claim that millions of Americans who disagree with you "turned against this war" when things looked tight, when any realistic reading of the polls from 2003 on has to show that progressives started out being against the need for this war from the inception and it is in fact significant portions of the *conservative* population who have continued to change their minds and question the very purpose for this invasion. Your characterization of millions of progressives as ignorant of military matters is a caricature and it's not accurate and it's not fair and it's not helpful. So, I'd say that no, you weren't able to accurately represent how millions of people who disagreed with you felt and to avoid making a joke of it at the same time. What good does that do?Comment Posted By Nash On 27.05.2005 @ 09:52
Compare and contrast:
I reject the premise of your comment. Bush has nothing to do with the effort by the left and their allies in the MSM to derail the war effort.
And anyone who cares about this entire issue should resent the spurious charges made by Mr. Cole that somehow our concerns are related to “partisan political considerations.” Is it a fact that the left is using Abu Ghraib and other abuse stories to skewer the Bush Administration and try to undermine the war effort? The question answers itself.
These arguments are not consistent. And while I'm at it, I'd really like to know what the motive is? Can you explain in a straightforward way why, as you say, the left, aided by the liberal media, want to undermine the war effort? Would you be willing to respond in a way that wasn't a caricature of someone's opinion, but actually something where they would say, "Yes, that accurately represents how I feel?" Because up thread you complain about having words put in *your* mouth.Comment Posted By Nash On 26.05.2005 @ 15:58
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